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(1 votes) 
3971 field, 87 left
BB villain plays 19 vpip 12 pfr af 2.0 aggr% 36 steal 33 $wsf 60 and is generally rather solid.
Should I make a rare herofold vs the oop donkshove on the turn in a 3 way pot or stick to my prf decision: on flop if hit A or K, never folding and going to showdown ever which way, having 30ish BB stack
Poker Stars $2.00+$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t1800/t3600 Blinds + t450 – 9 players
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter
LaPC (MP1): BB = 15.2, t54546
DIKAMARO (MP2): BB = 25.9, t93111
hodmandod77 (CO): BB = 54.7, t196754
mahoja (BTN): BB = 16.7, t59976
malaeem (SB): BB = 25.9, t93234
bRenato (BB): BB = 26.5, t95472
Hero (UTG): BB = 33.2, t119452
Easier_2_run (UTG+1): BB = 35.8, t128796
xacalxxx (UTG+2): BB = 15.0, t53939
Pre Flop: (t9450) Hero is UTG with A
K
Hero raises to t7992, 4 folds, hodmandod77 calls t7992, 2 folds, bRenato calls t4392
Flop: (t29826) A
6 6 (3 players)
bRenato checks, Hero bets t19800, hodmandod77 calls t19800, bRenato calls t19800
Turn: (t89226) J (3 players)
bRenato bets t67230 all in, Hero raises to t91210 all in, hodmandod77 folds
River: (t223686) T (2 players – 2 are all in)
TPE Management
April 6, 2010
Offline
think we are really only worried about AJ here. Dont think he leads if he hits his flush. Im pretty sure im never folding.
Your bet sizing OTF is really crampy into the other players.
We can bet small (1/4, 1/3) and try induce these guys to ship any showdown value or FD equity they have. Rather than cramp them into the top of their range to reship with big bet sizing.
sickly we might have to fold this turn.
player is leading into 2 others including OR'r and flat caller (who can have a potential flush) which tightens his range considerably
with 3rd player to act behind us, ick fml fold.
if one player checks we call
HU call
A lot of this heartache is reduced with smaller bet sizing over 3 streets
July 3, 2010
Offline
cbet 11550/get it in
FkCoolers said:
cbet 11550/get it in
+1
never folding.
OK, I agree that we are only really worried about AJ here but I think he could also decide that he's going with his ace now, expecting the J to play. Either way I don't like the way he has played it as he is likely losing value and I don't think he is ever bluffing with air or a flush draw. I just think that so often you are going to see him show Ax, especially in a $2 buy in that I am going with the hand and take my chance to build a stack. Also, you have 3 outs to win and 2 to split even if he does have AJ.
I
As far as the betsize on the flop is concerned, the reason for the bigger betsize is the non rainbowflop. On a rainbowflop I will bet lower usually. here I raise my protection vs flushdraws and also i want to discourage low to mid pp to go with their hand unless they pay (too) big for the privilige. Also i want the 3bshove stacks to know I won't fold a lot in this spot, discouraging them too and avoiding possible suckouts.
I know this is not maximising profit from this hand but as i see it I have 2 goals here in this phase of the tourney:
1) gather more chips
2) stay alive
Allthough I will not ever fold this particular flop to any raise or allin, i still am content with taking the pot with a bigger bet, indeed possibly pushing Ax hands and maybe midpairs out a lot (if they are good players). Still, worse or desperate players will call with those and similar holdings a ton at these stakes, paying too much. At turn ANY card can hit their kicker or make their set, but in general they will miss and I will push the turn almost allways.
So in playing this kinda line on the flop i try to balance my 2 goals.
II
As an alternative I could have (over)shoved pfr or shove the flop. In hindsight I would prefer the shove on the flop a lot this late with this stack. What do ya guys think about the alternative?
Im curious what people think a solid villian is doing this with?
Bytie_nl said:
I
As far as the betsize on the flop is concerned, the reason for the bigger betsize is the non rainbowflop. On a rainbowflop I will bet lower usually. here I raise my protection vs flushdraws and also i want to discourage low to mid pp to go with their hand unless they pay (too) big for the privilige. Also i want the 3bshove stacks to know I won't fold a lot in this spot, discouraging them too and avoiding possible suckouts.
I know this is not maximising profit from this hand but as i see it I have 2 goals here in this phase of the tourney:
1) gather more chips
2) stay alive
Allthough I will not ever fold this particular flop to any raise or allin, i still am content with taking the pot with a bigger bet, indeed possibly pushing Ax hands and maybe midpairs out a lot (if they are good players). Still, worse or desperate players will call with those and similar holdings a ton at these stakes, paying too much. At turn ANY card can hit their kicker or make their set, but in general they will miss and I will push the turn almost allways.
So in playing this kinda line on the flop i try to balance my 2 goals.
II
As an alternative I could have (over)shoved pfr or shove the flop. In hindsight I would prefer the shove on the flop a lot this late with this stack. What do ya guys think about the alternative?
I hate openshoving 33bbs utg with AK, I also don't like the flop shove. In your position I am looking to get maximum value from my hand. If they want to call with the midpair then I am very happy about it and they will probably get my stack if they hit, though they definitely aren't getting the odds for it. But the Ax hands are the ones I am really looking to get value from here and definitely don't want them folding. Again they can call and hit but they aren't getting the odds, in other words, if they could see my hand then calling would be a mistake and that is what I want from them. At this stage in the tournament you have a premium hand and hit the flop, I am not slowplaying but I am also not trying to chase people out, just a decent cbet, give them a chance to shove on you.
hawkeyeK9 said:
Im curious what people think a solid villian is doing this with?
hi r0 🙂
So as he will rarely do this as bluff u think a fold can be found at turn for the hero? I would have about 26BB left if I fold the turn…
Bytie_nl said:
As far as the betsize on the flop is concerned, the reason for the bigger betsize is the non rainbowflop. On a rainbowflop I will bet lower usually. here I raise my protection vs flushdraws and also i want to discourage low to mid pp to go with their hand unless they pay (too) big for the privilige.
– top top is way to strong to be considering protection in this spot
if you think of reasons to bet on a scale ->
airball bluff sd value into bluff protection thin value bet strong hand nuts
|——————–|——————-|—————-|——————|————–|
Top Top on a dry flop (dont fear the two tone) is in the strong hand area, too valuable to consider protection
Flush draws are rare and you still are >2:1 favourite (Ace redraw!). people can also be induced on the 3 to a flush turn
2 – 3 outers have such little equity they are of such little concern, if you get them to call 2 – 3 streets or rejam, your future eV will be much greater than the infrequent times they catch (~10% over 2 streets)
ideally you want as many chips in against these hands as frequently as possible- inducing is often the best way to do this.
hxcmf said:
sickly we might have to fold this turn.
player is leading into 2 others including OR'r and flat caller (who can have a potential flush) which tightens his range considerably
with 3rd player to act behind us, ick fml fold.
if one player checks we call
HU call
A lot of this heartache is reduced with smaller bet sizing over 3 streets
ty hxcmf: good arguments for folding indeed, rethinking the hand I came to the same conclusion, allthough ofc i would hate to make the fold, would increase my playing lvl if I had folden I now think.
hxcmf said:
Bytie_nl said:
As far as the betsize on the flop is concerned, the reason for the bigger betsize is the non rainbowflop. On a rainbowflop I will bet lower usually. here I raise my protection vs flushdraws and also i want to discourage low to mid pp to go with their hand unless they pay (too) big for the privilige.
– top top is way to strong to be considering protection in this spot
if you think of reasons to bet on a scale ->
airball bluff sd value into bluff protection thin value bet strong hand nuts
|——————–|——————-|—————-|——————|————–|
Top Top on a dry flop (dont fear the two tone) is in the strong hand area, too valuable to consider protection
Flush draws are rare and you still are >2:1 favourite (Ace redraw!). people can also be induced on the 3 to a flush turn
2 – 3 outers have such little equity they are of such little concern, if you get them to call 2 – 3 streets or rejam, your future eV will be much greater than the infrequent times they catch (~10% over 2 streets)
ideally you want as many chips in against these hands as frequently as possible- inducing is often the best way to do this.
Hi again! lol! great argument for toning down on the betsize in these spots. I always thought I had to make an exception in these spots due to the twotone. But u kinda convinced me!! appreciated sir!
October 6, 2010
Offline
great discussion in this thread
in terms of betting bigger because of the 2 tone, i would think it would be more important if it was a wet board where there are straight possibilities.
if the board was K9T 2 tone i would be much more likely to bet larger as there are lots of pair+gutter or open ender or flush/gutter type hands which have a lot more equity than just a flush draw.
July 3, 2010
Offline
I'm very surprised no one has mentioned trip 6's yet.
I think you'll see this from this particular villain far more than AJ or Ax with a weakish club kicker.
The guy is passive pre with a very low post-flop agg% and now he all of a sudden jams a scaryish board into 2 people? I dunno what we're beating. If we have a good club kicker we snap, probably.
Here it's really not so close … I honestly do not expect to see AJ hardly ever. I think he'd probably just ram that in preflop.
I might be totally rusty but I think it's trip 6's that wanted to slowplay and be cute and are now really afraid of a club runout because it's a multiway pot.
It's never a flush here, either. I think even a baby flush plays it differently.
Very strange line here. However, im folding. Im not beating anything at this point. And i still got 25 bigs, so im waiting for a better spot. What is he calling the flop with and shoving the turn on that board? AK has to be beat here.
FkCoolers said:
I'm very surprised no one has mentioned trip 6's yet.
I think you'll see this from this particular villain far more than AJ or Ax with a weakish club kicker.
The guy is passive pre with a very low post-flop agg% and now he all of a sudden jams a scaryish board into 2 people? I dunno what we're beating. If we have a good club kicker we snap, probably.
Here it's really not so close … I honestly do not expect to see AJ hardly ever. I think he'd probably just ram that in preflop.
I might be totally rusty but I think it's trip 6's that wanted to slowplay and be cute and are now really afraid of a club runout because it's a multiway pot.
It's never a flush here, either. I think even a baby flush plays it differently.
I agree. It is trip 6's with a wierd 76s hand or something like A8 or A9 with 8 or 9 being a club and he decides to jam given the two pair and J kicker with a club blocker. Would be super wierd to have any sort of flush here. Either way, I find a fold.
Hand Reveal:
Villain had Ad Jh and hit his kicker on turn, So the shove might indeed be to protect vs a flush as he has no clubs.
Thank you guys for all your comments in this post.
One lesson I have learned from this at least: Just dont snapcall and think the hand over before clicking 🙂
I might have found a fold if I had thought it over . I remember that I put him on AJ at first thought, but then figured that I already had decided never to fold at flop and I almost instareshoved and lost the hand.
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